Haza 400 value delay towers

[Meshtar]

https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=10084745

You can see his build on 14 and 15. The second tot was built specifically so it wouldn't be pulled with the main force and so the leak would be delayed more. He even built all the units later next to the wall to avoid pulling his other tot , but its obvious that tot isn't part of main force and both waves that Tot wasn't pulled before all of main force towers died. I didn't want to report this but in discord Haza insists he didn't do anything wrong.

@MickeyTheMousie @Snowblind

I also want to remind about this case
viewtopic.php?f=207&t=117968

[HazarDous]

My goal is to leak as slow as possible, so yeah, I will push it and push it as far as the tot goes within what I consider "main lane/build" so that it will still be alive once the rest of my units die and hence slow still effect. It would make no sense for us to ban for something that's considered within the main build's lane. If I had eggs, I'd just have spammed 20 of them (on same line), right until the very same spot my tot was. That would be considered main build, but solo tot isn't ?

That's indeed my judgement from 2 months ago. I wouldn't ban for this and have repeatedly told players (like in that game) that they can build within their line the way they want. We should not be restricting one's ability to build inside of his/her own lane in terms of width.

[Meshtar]

My goal is to leak as slow as possible, so yeah, I will push it and push it as far as the tot goes within what I consider "main lane/build" so that it will still be alive once the rest of my units die and hence slow still effect. It would make no sense for us to ban for something that's considered within the main build's lane. If I had eggs, I'd just have spammed 20 of them (on same line), right until the very same spot my tot was. That would be considered main build, but solo tot isn't ?

That's indeed my judgement from 2 months ago. I wouldn't ban for this and have repeatedly told players (like in that game) that they can build within their line the way they want. We should not be restricting one's ability to build inside of his/her own lane in terms of width.

Man you kidding me? Main force are all the units that get pulled TOGETHER when the creeps come. You did everything there to make that Tot not be pulled, thus its not part of the main force and qualifies as delay. I don't see that delay is anywhere considered as something that has to be built 7-8 lines above the main force or anything like that. When you make a line of eggs all those eggs will be pulled into fight together so that comparison doesn't stand. Ofc you wanted to leak slow, thats the point of delay also isn't it, but there are strict rules covering delay and how it has to be built.

Idc about bans or penalties or anything, what he did had 0 impact on our game, but it could have had if the game went differently and what I want here is a clear ruling for future cases, because its not like no one ever thought of doing something similar, but it falls under common sense its abuse.

[Kreutertee]

If I had eggs, I'd just have spammed 20 of them (on same line), right until the very same spot my tot was. That would be considered main build, but solo tot isn't ?

I'd say so, yes. Cause creeps would run to all those eggs pretty fast and pull the tot right into the "main fight", all units fighting the same time. A single tot, who doesn't see any creeps for miles and just stands there, ain't fighting the "main fight" and therefore should be added to the overall delay value of 120.

We should not be restricting one's ability to build inside of his/her own lane in terms of width.

We do, by not allowing split on race levels. It's not written anywhere, how exactly a split has to occur (front/back or left/right). But as far as your build goes, you willfully accept the fact it might split from your main army. And since it has proven to do that on 14 already, 15 was no difference. Also for the fact that you built your 120g front delay and your main army all on the right side, doing everything to split the top/left TOT and delay to the max.

I think this shouldn't be allowed.

[HazarDous]

I'd say so, yes. Cause creeps would run to all those eggs pretty fast and pull the tot right into the "main fight", all units fighting the same time. A single tot, who doesn't see any creeps for miles and just stands there, ain't fighting the "main fight" and therefore should be added to the overall delay value of 120.

mm, ok. I somewhat agree with that, but you can never really predict when a unit will be pulled or not. It's true that the more there are units close to it, the better the chances it will pull due to centaurs closer. Does it mean that so long as I put 1 tot in between the left wall and the right wall within the same line, that wouldn't be considered as delay? Because the chances it pulls increases, and therefore, more chances the tots are part of the fight by the time the right side of the line has died? We're playing with probabilities here and that's something I don't like to rule upon. In the judgement I linked about pwnerer, I told him in game that sides corner polars weren't considered as delay due to being in same line (before retracting that statement as I took notice his "main build" was entirely down the middle, therefore polars don't qualify as same line).

We do, by not allowing split on race levels. It's not written anywhere, how exactly a split has to occur (front/back or left/right). But as far as your build goes, you willfully accept the fact it might split from your main army. And since it has proven to do that on 14 already, 15 was no difference. Also for the fact that you built your 120g front delay and your main army all on the right side, doing everything to split the top/left TOT and delay to the max.

With regards to split, we do indeed, but not by width. We do it rather by vertical length. Regarding the rest, yeah it did end up as a delay. I'd just point out toward my usual builds. Whenever I have revs or specters for anti 15, I always end up with some even further back from where I put that tot (going into left corner dark green). Most of the time, some do split into effectively not attacking the wave until the rest of the "main army" died. Yet again, I would agree though, that the probabilities of splitting are reduced when there are units in between both walls. TL;DR; I took a chance of splitting, and it is unfortunate that it did, but that's also what I do when I build to hold.. The goal is always to leak as slow as possible, and so placing a limit on this is rather hard. That's why I never wanted to restrict one's ability to build within their line in terms of width. How do you suggest ruling on this ?

[FateStayNight]

lmao just watched the replay and im pretty sure that was never allowed since it counts as delay, its just delay on the other side of your "army", on 14 that tot was clearly not part of the army.

[bezdak]

All I'm seeing here is an upped ToT delay. Or intentional splitting. Call it however you want but that's a clear ban case, especially after the case we had earlier. It was never meant to have any fighting value, just a pure delay value. That's a definition of a delay tower. Even the corner delay was build specifically to not pull the ToT on the left, blows my mind you're even arguing about this Haza.

Spoiler!

Screenshot 2017-12-01 18.51.49.png (1.67 MiB) Viewed 1365 times

Code: Select all

Do not build over 120 value of delay towers.

[HazarDous]

All I'm seeing here is an upped ToT delay. Or intentional splitting. Call it however you want but that's a clear ban case, especially after the case we had earlier. It was never meant to have any fighting value, just a pure delay value.

smfh, of course it is delay value... Call it 1.5k of dead value if you want. The moment you decide to suicide in a game, none of your towers are meant to be 'fighting value'. All they're meant to be is "slow-leak value" or "delay value". I built specifically in order to do just that. Did it split, though? yes. Was that my goal? no and it's unfortunate that it did. If that's what I wanted, I would have built it in the dark green. There's a reason I never wanted to rule upon same line delay cases, theres no clear way to rule on it, kinda like pulling with zeus.

That's a definition of a delay tower. Even the corner delay was build specifically to not pull the ToT on the left

Capture d’écran 2017-12-01 à 13.10.05.png (1.57 MiB) Viewed 1348 times

Is that also >120 corner delay? How do you judge on this? Part of main build, yet there's a good chance 5-6 eggs don't pull. I don't mind changing my opinion and ruling on these cases. But I'd rather do it with proper guidelines. Until then, I do stick to my 2 months old judgement that anything within the same line as the main army is not to be ruled upon.

[Meshtar]

All those towers in that pic will likely get pulled into fight as soon as creeps go flank, and they will since there is barely any dps that would prevent them from clogging

[nicolai123]

Lets say that he has an insane amount of gold so he can't save, in which case he has to fill his lane up, he can't sell tot because that would be rule breaking, but at the same time tot makes himdelay more which is also rule breaking. This is clearly a no-win situation

edit: he literally cannot place those units anywhere without making excessive delay

edit2.0:ok wtf that isn't the screenshot of hazardous? if so just ignore this post

[HazarDous]

I kinda disagree tbh, those are eggs, they won't pull until the very end, when there is no more "fighting value", at which point, the eggs will be at the very same place as when they started the wave, hence still "corner" or "delay" value or w/e, yet they are also part of the main build. I've seen a full line of revs (4-5) not pulling into a fight until the very end and they were further away from where I placed that tot. I did fail at respecting the 'no split' rule, I guess. Was never really my intention though. As I said, when you suicide, you should always aim to leak as slow as possible, and the best way to do that is for the tot or polar or egg or wolve or etc., not to engage in the fight until the latest possible moment.

edit: My judgement was that we shouldn't restrict builders from building in width for that reason. I don't mind changing to "if it fails to pull, hence delay, you get a ban".

[Meshtar]

You clearly built all units of the main force next to the wall to avoid pulling the tot on the other side, so arguing that you didn't intentionally build that tot the way that it doesn't get pulled is just insulting for our intelligence

[HazarDous]

You're free to think that, all I did was put a tot on the other side of the lane assuming it would pull at the very end, period. That's often what it does, and you should know by now that I don't respond well to attacks on my integrity and even less so personal attacks. As far as I am concerned, this forum is meant to argue different point of views and for mods to make final decisions on cases. Anda and Mick will do that, on which side they'll decide is ultimately out of my control but I will explain my point of view regardless without tolerating personal attacks.

[Meshtar]

I said insulting for our intelligence or your intelligence and you consider that flame?
It wasn't meant to be, so I apologize if that is how you saw it. There is nothing personal here man, I just want to know how is this rule regarded and to know how I can build in the future. I don't request any ban or penalty either, just information. I do get triggered a bit by your reasoning I guess, cause it seems "weird" to put it mildly. Anyway, different opinions are all fine, but I want to see the ruling for future reference. So yeah, lets wait for Mick's and Anda's thoughts

[Meshtar]

After a discussion, micki and me decided that this is to be considered a delay tower under the momentary rules. So there is a rulebreak here, do NOT build like this.
I will give Mick the opportunity to explain if there is demand for it / anyone else feels different then Hazardous in this case. We might give another statement to delicate affairs like this.
No penalty demanded , though no further actions will be taken.
If somebody from the game wants this to be judged as a penalty case again, make a topic yourself .