Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

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Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby AmnoN » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:59 am

Hi All,

Suggestion: Auto-reset for players who end up sub-800 elo
Rationale:
1) Deters players from engaging in intentional game-ruining (seen this behaviour before and it is hard to track down all players like this)
2) Reduces hold-ups in lobbies - few people wanting to play a game for 2 elo due to someone having 600 elo (high risk, low reward) with few players wanting to play with such a player (nobody likes to lose). Many of these players also do not necessarily know how to reset stats - even those who are learning, may want to reset stats but simply do not know how (in my opinion, the only people who would not want to reset are intentionally trying to get their elo as low as possible).
3) Realistically, players should not end up below 800 elo unless they are intentionally game ruining, refusing to cooperate, etc. (even people learning should not end up with elo below that if they are genuinely trying to learn and listening to others). The elo balance system is largely what makes it difficult to end up below 800 elo - teams with someone between 800 and 900 elo usually end up playing with upside to get 20-25 elo.

Common Argument:
1) ENT should not interfere with stats, etc. as some people may want to retain stats
Response - those who have sub-800 elo are VERY few and far between and are typically there because they simply do not care (in terms of elo or learning) or are intentionally trying to get their elo lower, etc.

TLDR: I am proposing that players have their accounts reset when they end up under 800 elo since it deters game-ruining behaviour (in an attempt to get their elo as low as possible - game ruiners), gets lobbies flowing faster, and the elo balance system largely makes it difficult to get an elo so low unless it is intentional (refusing to learn or outright game ruining).

Thoughts?
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Merex » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:11 am

Players who hold lower ELO are no different from any other player. I don't see a need to automatically reset ones stats simply because they play a game for large amounts of time and may indefinitely fall under average.

Unless this becomes both a proven and consistent issue in either LTD/DotA/CF etc. then I don't see a need for this to change. People hold the right to carry whatever stats they choose, and should they not - We have a reset via ENT Link.

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby nvs » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:35 am

TLDR: I think your proposal would make more sense if you were suggesting a rating limit on public bots (e.g. 800). Regardless, encourage skilled players who are seeking competition to join in-house leagues.

In public games (i.e. non-league games) the meaning of rating as it currently exists on ENT is largely irrelevant. It essentially is nothing more a naive, convenient, and flawed method to track player progress. This stems from a number of factors, the largest of which is the lack of proper matchmaking. Don't get me wrong, I see the value in providing carrots that players can strive to acquire. It adds replay value.

But this lack of blind matchmaking to pair equally rated players/teams against one another is the primary issue. However, it is impossible to solve without significant work to the bots (and, perhaps, without a massive influx of players). The easiest workaround is to encourage skilled players to attempt to join in-house leagues, where there are more guarantees in regards to competition, identity, and sportsmanship. Leagues such as this exist for the most popular custom games, and not solely on ENT. An alternative solution, which is also implemented on ENT, are bots with rating requirements. This effectively represents a naive method to implement matchmaking; noticeably lacking, however, is the blind aspect of proper matchmaking.

However, let's look at public games on ENT, where blind matchmaking does not exist. The typical player does not want to lose. They want to protect their rating, almost at all costs. Without proper matchmaking, they will dodge games they think they will lose, prey upon players whose rating is ripe for the taking, and stack teams drastically in their own favor. Much of the posturing for points is not even done inside the games, as the outcome is almost pre-determined by simply looking at the lobby. And the issue of low rating is as much of a problem as inflated ratings. Both throw the system out of kilter. And, ultimately, neither really mean much given the context of how they were achieved.

Your proposal comes from a good place and hopes to eliminate some specific issues. But, overall, you're trying to throw a bandage on a flawed system. Rather than forcibly resetting irrelevant stats, it may be more prudent to put a rating limit on the public bots (e.g. 800) to weed out those who intentionally try to reach the Elo floor. It can also be used to educate uninformed users that they can reset their stats. And it should continue to facilitate the large part of a player base who cares more about a number than actual competition. For those who seek competition, options already exist for them.

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby kunkka » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:52 pm

AmnoN wrote:2) Reduces hold-ups in lobbies - few people wanting to play a game for 2 elo due to someone having 600 elo (high risk, low reward) with few players wanting to play with such a player (nobody likes to lose).

Now when you face 5 players who are on 500 elo skill level, their average elo is 1000 instead of 500 and you get better "risk and reward" ratio. This change is going to encourage stackers to stack much harder lmao.

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Sylvanas » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:24 pm

Honestly, most horrible players already operate on disposable accounts. The few that are sticking with their old 300-700 range beat up accounts are basically our mascots.

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Vaylen » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:09 am

agreed with all your points, great idea

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby pr0totype » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:23 pm

Even then, dispose of low elo, set the base as 850 or 900. That might be an easier way to handle the issue.

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby wTc[JediMaster] » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:28 pm

@AmnoN So we cap the elo to 1200 then aswell?
So we have 400 elo points +/- To move around with?

Cuz if you gonna force a "floor" might aswell make a "roof" while youre at it :S

+ To be honest if people care about elo they mostly make new acc/swap stats if they get bellow 1k anyway
So if a few dont care about elo or making troll accs to boost other players to 2k+ well Maybe enforce that people can only play with 1 account so troll & boost accs cant be used to help other accs.

(For ex 1 person have a 1900elo acc & the rest in team have 8-900elo accs that will boot the acc more then if everyone was using thier 1500+ accs.)

But since thats a tremendous task forcing this wall on players dont make alot of sense unless you wall them in from both sides.
for ex: 500<->1500, then people start with 1000 elo and can move 500+/- from that.

Or just remove elo totaly and just give people points.
Everyone start at 0 Points and then get X points from winning.
(Maybe losing points from losing games, but never over to negative numbers so someone with 15 points lose 20 they'll not have -5 but 0.)

But since elo hunting is a big part of most ENT hosted games & 1 of the major reasons some people play on them reworking it might be a bad idea.

But if "reparing" the gamers attitude towards the games it might be better just to remove any kind of elo/score points part from basic stats with games & hours played. (that in itself has some problems too for some but less then win/lose ratio & scores.)




But yes true I wont disagree that theres some problems but dont think this/your fix is the way to go.
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby pr0totype » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:24 pm

If we set a floor then there isn't as much inclination to get 325 elo because it's impossible.

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby AmnoN » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:32 am

@wtc[jedimaster] Why make a roof? You actually have to win in order to get that - does not encourage game ruining behaviour. It makes it harder to stack through smurfs, etc. as someone cannot lose to boost their friend's accounts either way (cannot boost with a sub-800 account). If people make smurfs at 1000 elo, it will have less effect as there will not be anyone sub-800 (average elo in lobby is higher).

It is not overly difficult to put a floor in - just an auto-reset function.

@av1on Realistically, the only way to get below 800 elo is to refuse to listen to your team/ learn or to outright game ruin. The lowest that I ever got while learning on my own was 950. The game is pretty straight forward and simply requires a basic understanding of it to hover around 1000 or even 1050 due to the nature of public bots and those that play on them.

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Hakuna » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:46 am

So my concern:

Players who actively contribute to losing will cause greater loss of ELO with reduced advance warning. The current system gives you a warning of seeing their ELO which might make you decide not to play with them, but if they were just a 0/2 with 980 or something you would not be able to see as easily that they were a troll who liked to throw games.

Players who are just bad will likewise be impossible to tell since they will just continually rebound up to 1000. This might be people with language barriers, people who are slow to learn or people who don't like communicating, or even just people who hate cooperating.

From the perspective of normal players who are trying to find a decent team without stacking/dodging for 20 minutes, it makes it harder to weed out the riffraff.

Now, I am someone who likes helping people who are willing to be helped. It all comes down to attitude. If they are willing to work together then plenty of improvement can be made but a lot of these players are not that way.

Honestly I think the whole ELO system, while it works for the most part and is fairly impartial, I think it's flawed and if there was a better system for ranking players I would be pretty interested to try it.
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby wTc[JediMaster] » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:04 pm

@AmnoN Well as said if you gonna block people from having under 1k then you might aswell block people from having over and then the whole point of the score is kinda killed and you might aswell remove it fully and all the problems that comes with it :P

So IMO:
Keep it or remove it. Having ratio & games is "nuf" if you disslike elo, no need for points.
And if you disslike problems with that remove that aswell.

Then it's just acc names & games played like on mmh. :)

But tweaking it halfway just to mask bad/fake players/accs is a bad idea. And if you really wanna do that Then you should do it both ways 200 points under & over 1k or 500 or 1000. :/

@Hakuna Ye those might become problems too :P
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Hakuna » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:44 pm

@wTc[JediMaster]
Just gonna agree with Amnon that your argument doesn't make sense.

Having an auto-reset for low ELO has nothing to do with high ELO. Your equating of the two has no logical basis. You are basically arguing that if we remove the ability to have low ELO then there is no meaning to having high ELO? I am pretty sure that if you spent a minute or two thinking this through you would decide that it isn't the case.

For instance: his point is that a low ELO player will stall a game because nobody wants to play with them and nobody really wants to play against them either because even though it's probably a guaranteed win, you don't win very much ELO and you risk losing a lot on a fluke loss. The inverse is not true at all. High ELO players don't stall lobbies generally. People want to play with high ELO players because they believe they will likely win by having them on their team and conversely there is a competitive thrill to going against someone with high ELO not to mention you don't risk much and you have plenty to gain. It is the opposite problem in my eyes.

A problem can occur when a high ELO player realizes that the people on his team are not reliable enough to guarantee him the win so instead of risking a lot of ELO fighting a game he could lose he goes to another lobby to try and find more reliable teammates. In general though it is the high ELO player who leaves not everyone else, and if they choose to stay the lobby will not be frozen.

Also the same solution to both ends makes absolutely no sense. If hitting 800 ELO automatically reset you to 1000, it gives you a second chance, as it were. If hitting 1200 made you auto reset then there would be no incentive to win and climb the ladder, since your stats are erased every time you are doing well.

If instead of resetting people with 800 ELO, their ELO loss were just frozen, would that work, and would it have negative consequences? For example, what if a player has 801.5 ELO and they lose a match which would have cost them 4 ELO, they just drop to 800 and stop. Any more losses after this, regardless of how much they are predicted to lose, will just leave them with 800.

The downside I see is that it would basically make having 800 ELO the same as the current situation with 600 ELO players etc where they would be avoided like the plague. Though in LTD basically anyone lower than 950 is already considered a noob and most people won't play with them if they care about their ELO. Kind of dumb if you ask me but oh well. Tis the shortcoming of a player-regulated matchmaking system instead of system-regulated.
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby EdgeOfChaos » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:07 pm

This is not a good solution. All it will do is make ELO mean even less than it does now.

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby wTc[JediMaster] » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:59 am

@Hakuna There is a floor at 0 alrdy tho :)
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