Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Hakuna » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:42 am

@wTc[JediMaster]
And is there a ceiling already?

Guessing no, and guessing you know the reason as well as I do. If there is one I'm sure it's high enough that it's not reasonable for anyone to ever reach it, something like 100k.

I feel like putting a floor at 0 affects <0.01% of players so there may as well not even be one. The sort of person that intentionally loses game after game after game until they hit 0 is someone who honestly deserves to be banned. If they are not banned then they are somehow dodging breaking any rules and are exemplifying behaviour that SHOULD be against the rules. The point of a matchmaking system is to pit people of equal skill against each other. Someone who is trying to lose literally has 0 skill to offer. There is no opponent except another one who is also trying to lose against whom he can succeed.

Anyway I don't think that pointing out there already is a floor at 0 even contributes to the discussion any further?
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby PRECUM. » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:05 am

AmnoN wrote:@wtc[jedimaster] Why make a roof? You actually have to win in order to get that - does not encourage game ruining behaviour. It makes it harder to stack through smurfs, etc. as someone cannot lose to boost their friend's accounts either way (cannot boost with a sub-800 account). If people make smurfs at 1000 elo, it will have less effect as there will not be anyone sub-800 (average elo in lobby is higher).

It is not overly difficult to put a floor in - just an auto-reset function.

@av1on Realistically, the only way to get below 800 elo is to refuse to listen to your team/ learn or to outright game ruin. The lowest that I ever got while learning on my own was 950. The game is pretty straight forward and simply requires a basic understanding of it to hover around 1000 or even 1050 due to the nature of public bots and those that play on them.

Why auto reset? This is a number that shouldn't be significant to play. Stats are questionable. Every hero has a purpose and perform differently. When a player loses a 5v5 over and over again it's not a statistic issue, it's a performance issue. Do they perform poorly or does their team perform poorly along with them?
Low ELO players typically lose more games often because their team throws games to keep them down.
Take bans more seriously and we won't have this issue.
Bans should be longer and for some of them there should be a mandatory ban appeal request. Weed out the throwers and toxic players and we will not have the issue.
No need to ruin the ELO system over these frivolous issues.
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Sylvanas » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:54 am

PRECUM. wrote:Low ELO players typically lose more games often because their team throws games to keep them down.

Say what? You think there are people who intentionally throw games, but only if there's a low elo player in their team? Who are those people and why do they do the things they do?

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Jabba41 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:42 am

100 to 9999 is the current Elo limit @hakuna
Not sure why 100 was chosen, But it doesn't matter if it's 0 or 100, these elo ratings are nearly impossible to reach

And btw I once was at 620 elo on the account I'm using still :D so everything is possible
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Hakuna » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:04 pm

620 I can believe but yeah 100 would take serious dedication.

In response to the one guy, I know that I am speaking only from Legion TD experience, not Dota, but the same principle equally applies to both.
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Sylvanas » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:11 pm

Jabba41 wrote:100 to 9999 is the current Elo limit @hakuna
Not sure why 100 was chosen, But it doesn't matter if it's 0 or 100, these elo ratings are nearly impossible to reach

And btw I once was at 620 elo on the account I'm using still :D so everything is possible

A 9999 elo player with four 100 elo sea cucumber allies (average elo of 2080 per player) would still be playing for like 1 elo per win and 29 per loss every game. That's how hardcore 9999 elo players are.
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Letbell » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:21 am

Why don't we forced players to have an account that is only playable if it registered on ENT-bot?
If we do it that way, it's easier to keep track and players can't smurf at all.

What if the players had a registered account and non-registered multiple account?
Well, they can only play ENT-games with the registered account on ENT.

What if the players had registered multiple account?
Well assuming they change their IP address and decided to make multiple registered account. That's fine, because if they messed up once, ENT will probably enforced some sort of ban on them for having multiple accounts.

What if you had 2 people playing the same IPs like...they're playing under the same roof?
Well, I don't know, but if it happened multiple time, and it's probably that they're buddy-in-arms. :ugeek:

What if everything that I typed right now sound pretty bull-sh*t and didn't comply with ENT's rules about being a friendly community?
Well sh*t happened.

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby wTc[JediMaster] » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:06 am

@Letbell
Letbell wrote:Why don't we forced players to have an account that is only playable if it registered on ENT-bot?
If we do it that way, it's easier to keep track and players can't smurf at all.


Well thers not really a way to "force" people to only use 1 acc. would maybe make some delay in making new/more accs but still posible to get more xD

What if the players had a registered account and non-registered multiple account?
Well, they can only play ENT-games with the registered account on ENT.


Well a few of the bots for ex the 1100+ / 1200+ bots have something close to that. But far from what you aim for.

What if the players had registered multiple account?
Well assuming they change their IP address and decided to make multiple registered account. That's fine, because if they messed up once, ENT will probably enforced some sort of ban on them for having multiple accounts.


Well to a degree ye but isnt that kinda harsh just for a elo related problem.

What if you had 2 people playing the same IPs like...they're playing under the same roof?
Well, I don't know, but if it happened multiple time, and it's probably that they're buddy-in-arms. :ugeek:


Well There is LANs aswell & Gaming Cafes. & in some places of the world thats the norm rather then playing at home so :/
But well one might say it's the establishments job to keep thier players "honest" so. Still tricky thing to balance and a choice has to be made then.

What if everything that I typed right now sound pretty bull-sh*t and didn't comply with ENT's rules about being a friendly community?
Well sh*t happened.


Well you're ofc welcome to bring up a topic. it beeing acording to current rules or no :P
Thats also kinda the point of this Thread to maybe "Change" something or Not & to what.
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby FalenGa » Thu May 10, 2018 9:23 am

I do not believe automatically resetting low-skilled player's elo is a policy ENT should adapt. Here's my reasoning behind this.

  • First of all, it's a contradiction to our unofficial motto, "ENT is a newbie friendly community". You can't be newbie friendly while forcing a stats wipe on those new players, simply because they are not on a certain level.

  • You mentioned risk/reward. From my point of view, that part is more accurate as is. Disguising a 700 elo player to a 1000 one changes nothing on how the game plays, but does affect the risk/reward system. Lower elo on your team = higher elo to be gained in victory, and vice-versa.

    Yes, there have been incidents where a lobby was delayed due to that. However, i do not believe the magnitute of this problem is high enough to justify such an extreme measure.

  • Finally, let's look at this from the player's perspective. He has played a bunch of games, invested several hours into those, and built an accurate representation of his skills/time through the stats gained. They might not be positive, but they are his.

    ENT should have no control over those stats, except for rule violations, stats transfers, inactivity, etc. This power should remain with the user.

In my opinion, this approach does not feel very welcoming.
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby wTc[JediMaster] » Thu May 10, 2018 1:48 pm

Maybe something more akin to "teachers & guides" to help new/bad players improve might be a better thing.
If everyplayer is just there for themselfs then that the overall enviorment will improve is a small one no?

& Many/all of the elo games ENT host is Teambased so for people to "carry" isnt really uncommon, if more people started taking more steps into learning & teaching rather then go right for BRQ.

And if people really dislike others with less exp then themselves there are some inhouse-leagues that they can apply for and play in :)

Hosting the game oneself works aswell, and ye true some delay is to be had if people only look&care about stats. But if you dont have "time" to wait, then why are you playing a game at all :P

So yeah, keep it as it is or remove it. This suggested tweak isnt really a good one.
(elo / scores / stats isnt really there to be "forged", & people have the option to wipe their stats if they want.)
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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby pr0totype » Thu May 10, 2018 4:14 pm

There are plenty of people to teach but more who don't communicate or attempt to learn.

Not only that but there are people who ruin: i.e. lowesteloever solely to lose.

A floor of 850 would deter anyone from trying to hit the current floor as it wouldn't be a possibility.

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby Sylvanas » Fri May 11, 2018 3:56 am

pr0totype wrote:There are plenty of people to teach but more who don't communicate or attempt to learn.

Not only that but there are people who ruin: i.e. lowesteloever solely to lose.

A floor of 850 would deter anyone from trying to hit the current floor as it wouldn't be a possibility.

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Re: Auto-Reset Policy for ELO Sub-800

Postby HazarDous » Tue May 29, 2018 4:30 am

With regards to resetting one's elo, the suggestion is denied. Refer to @Falenga 's previous post. Besides, that's elo manipulation.

If you want to increase the elo floor from 100 to X, make a new suggestion.

Thanks.


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