Troll & Elves rules.

[xikens]

Hello, I just noticed Troll & Elves rules changed. In my opinion, there are incomplete rules and missing rules. I'll take all rules one by one and comment it.

- If your base is destroyed or a base with more than two builders needs help, you may go there to aid with spells (nothing else) but you must not build or do anything else.
Sometimes the troll is too strong for you, destroy your base, and you can't build a strong base. So you have to hide with another builder. If he has to go in a 2-elves base, you can't ask the player to just stay in a base and not build. He should have the right to at least build his house and a wall in this base.

- When killed and chosen to help the elves, you may not hide in the middle between the Troll's huts in the Medium-Sized winter map.
So what about the small vertical snowy map ? (see 1st attachment 'Screenshot_1.png')
And this rule doesn't include the elf. When the game is lost, or when someone doesn't want to play, it happens that he goes hide next to the hut so we can't kill him.

- Do not trap the troll more than once per game.
So, if I understood, the number of rounds doesn't matter, we just can trap only than once in the whole game ?
What if the trap fail, if the troll escape ?

- Do not blink as either Angel or Elf into places on the map that the troll is unable to reach you from.
What if we don't blink ? Elves and angels can walk into places where the troll is unable to reach. For example, the space next to the hut in the Medium-Sized winter map.
In my opinion, this rule and the rule 'When killed and chosen to help the elves, you may not hide in the middle between the Troll's huts in the Medium-Sized winter map.' should be gathered for 'Do not hide as Elf or Angel where the troll is unable to reach you.'

- Do not use structures to block your entrance that neither yourself/the troll can click on.
We can build clickable structures which are still unattackable when the troll stands next to it, because he doesn't have vision on it. Looks like this rule doesn't take this vision abuse into account.
The trick isn't well known, but it is gamebreaker, because it can make a any base unreachable. I don't have a game showing this, I'll make an example soon.
EDIT : Game example in attachment. Look at yellow's house at 1:50, 9:30 and 17:10. Using this should be bannable, but there isn't any rule against this trick.


Finally, why is double basing with wall share allowed ? It's more OP than lost of bannable things. I attach a replay where 2 ppl wall shared, and we can see they both got a bigger house than their allies very fast, and thus can defend their base very easily.

[Ziadoma]

Great input, I like the changes xikens suggest, especially:

- If your base is destroyed or a base with more than two builders needs help, you may go there to aid with spells (nothing else) but you must not build or do anything else.
Sometimes the troll is too strong for you, destroy your base, and you can't build a strong base. So you have to hide with another builder. If he has to go in a 2-elves base, you can't ask the player to just stay in a base and not build. He should have the right to at least build his house and a wall in this base.

Because this is supposed to be a teamgame and not a game where everbody plays for himself vs the trolls.

- Do not blink as either Angel or Elf into places on the map that the troll is unable to reach you from.
What if we don't blink ? Elves and angels can walk into places where the troll is unable to reach. For example, the space next to the hut in the Medium-Sized winter map.
In my opinion, this rule and the rule 'When killed and chosen to help the elves, you may not hide in the middle between the Troll's huts in the Medium-Sized winter map.' should be gathered for 'Do not hide as Elf or Angel where the troll is unable to reach you.'

It should be more simple just to fix the map instead of making a rule against it, is that not possible?

[xikens]

- Do not blink as either Angel or Elf into places on the map that the troll is unable to reach you from.
What if we don't blink ? Elves and angels can walk into places where the troll is unable to reach. For example, the space next to the hut in the Medium-Sized winter map.
In my opinion, this rule and the rule 'When killed and chosen to help the elves, you may not hide in the middle between the Troll's huts in the Medium-Sized winter map.' should be gathered for 'Do not hide as Elf or Angel where the troll is unable to reach you.'

It should be more simple just to fix the map instead of making a rule against it, is that not possible?

I don't have any map maker skill, but it is easier to fix these rules than modifying the map. Moreover, it's been a while this map is hosted by ENT, and they prefered put these rules instead of changing the map. However, if you want, you could modify the map and suggest it to ENT, but it's another subject.

[Merex]

- If your base is destroyed or a base with more than two builders needs help, you may go there to aid with spells (nothing else) but you must not build or do anything else.
Sometimes the troll is too strong for you, destroy your base, and you can't build a strong base. So you have to hide with another builder. If he has to go in a 2-elves base, you can't ask the player to just stay in a base and not build. He should have the right to at least build his house and a wall in this base.

I beg to differ. If it comes to a situation where your base is broken, by tradition, you should be dead. If such isn't the case and you decide to blink and run to a double base which is pretty rare in itself, then yes, you do sit in there and refrain from building.

This rule was put in place by the T&E mods of the time due to how triple basing negatively effects overall troll experience. What we found is that triple rooting and triple invul shield is simply too much in a 6 player game (common). This was also to prevent things like quad-basing etc. which yes is in violation as we put the cap at 2.

- Do not trap the troll more than once per game.
So, if I understood, the number of rounds doesn't matter, we just can trap only than once in the whole game ?
What if the trap fail, if the troll escape ?

The rule stands as you may only trap the troll once per-game which yes, applies to all elves globally.

However, since we're in suggestions and on the topic of rules, I'd much prefer just to have this made 100% ban-able. There's nothing to gain from trapping. When this rule was first introduced, I had figured troll trapping can be a strategy to some extent but overtime I just see the benefit of it lower and lower, especially since in most cases it's used as a troll mechanism rather than the latter.

- Do not blink as either Angel or Elf into places on the map that the troll is unable to reach you from.
What if we don't blink ? Elves and angels can walk into places where the troll is unable to reach. For example, the space next to the hut in the Medium-Sized winter map.
In my opinion, this rule and the rule 'When killed and chosen to help the elves, you may not hide in the middle between the Troll's huts in the Medium-Sized winter map.' should be gathered for 'Do not hide as Elf or Angel where the troll is unable to reach you.'

It's the same thing. Walk, blink, specifics like that aren't to be taken literal but the overall rule. If it's said you can't be in between shops, then it means you cannot.

I agree with your change, makes it more general. Not really sure why that rule was specified to one map anyways when the majority of the maps do contain "immortal spots" like so.

- Do not use structures to block your entrance that neither yourself/the troll can click on.
We can build clickable structures which are still unattackable when the troll stands next to it, because he doesn't have vision on it. Looks like this rule doesn't take this vision abuse into account.
The trick isn't well known, but it is gamebreaker, because it can make a any base unreachable. I don't have a game showing this, I'll make an example soon.

That glitch is easily countered by the reveal spell. I haven't once seen in my thousands of games in troll and elves anyone who's used this "vision block" to their advantage. To even find a space, aside from that base, to place it and both operate a base beyond it is already uncommon enough as it is. I just don't see why that should be made ban-able when it's maybe 1 in every 100 games, if even that.

Also to note - The troll that was "vision blocked" did eventually get around to attacking it, and did have the opportunity to kill it but he left it at low hp. Only furthers that reveal can be used to prevent such.

Finally, why is double basing with wall share allowed ? It's more OP than lost of bannable things. I attach a replay where 2 ppl wall shared, and we can see they both got a bigger house than their allies very fast, and thus can defend their base very easily.

Wall sharing is easily one of the most advanced yet rewarding strategies to date in T&E. It's not something that is traditionally done by randoms. To even use the wall sharing method to it's fullest potential would require prior experience, knowledge of the method and 2 well coordinated elfs to simultaneously stay on track.

Following that, I just don't see how this should be ban-able. They are within the base cap and the house advantages, again, would require some experience of the method and overall provides elves with an "upper-hand" but not enough to be seen as blatant abuse in my opinion. I do see how 2 people jumping ahead can "upset" some solo basers but I don't see why this shouldn't be allowed. This also does little to the troll experience as it's still like any other double base.

[xikens]

This rule was put in place by the T&E mods of the time due to how triple basing negatively effects overall troll experience. What we found is that triple rooting and triple invul shield is simply too much in a 6 player game (common).

It's funny because the only thing we allow to a third player in a base is to cast his spells... While just building a house and the buildings necessary to upgrade it doesn't help the 2 other players, it just makes the 3rd player experience better. But I agree, it doesn't happen often and it isn't really important.

- Do not use structures to block your entrance that neither yourself/the troll can click on.
We can build clickable structures which are still unattackable when the troll stands next to it, because he doesn't have vision on it. Looks like this rule doesn't take this vision abuse into account.
The trick isn't well known, but it is gamebreaker, because it can make a any base unreachable. I don't have a game showing this, I'll make an example soon.

That glitch is easily countered by the reveal spell. I haven't once seen in my thousands of games in troll and elves anyone who's used this "vision block" to their advantage. To even find a space, aside from that base, to place it and both operate a base beyond it is already uncommon enough as it is. I just don't see why that should be made ban-able when it's maybe 1 in every 100 games, if even that.

Also to note - The troll that was "vision blocked" did eventually get around to attacking it, and did have the opportunity to kill it but he left it at low hp. Only furthers that reveal can be used to prevent such.
[/quote]
Indeed, this glitch isn't known, but is that really a reason to not make it bannable ?
In my game, I built a wall behind to be able to build a normal base later, but it isn't necessary.
He tried 3 times to destroy it at 3 stages of the game, so with a low, medium and good stuff, and he didn't do it. If I based behind this house, I would've root or shield at soon as he uses reveal and he would've barely been able to attack it. And of course I could've repair it to kepp it full life.
I don't get why such an abuse, even if it isn't used, is allowed. I can do other games

Finally, why is double basing with wall share allowed ? It's more OP than lost of bannable things. I attach a replay where 2 ppl wall shared, and we can see they both got a bigger house than their allies very fast, and thus can defend their base very easily.

Wall sharing is easily one of the most advanced yet rewarding strategies to date in T&E. It's not something that is traditionally done by randoms. To even use the wall sharing method to it's fullest potential would require prior experience, knowledge of the method and 2 well coordinated elfs to simultaneously stay on track.

Following that, I just don't see how this should be ban-able. They are within the base cap and the house advantages, again, would require some experience of the method and overall provides elves with an "upper-hand" but not enough to be seen as blatant abuse in my opinion. I do see how 2 people jumping ahead can "upset" some solo basers but I don't see why this shouldn't be allowed. This also does little to the troll experience as it's still like any other double base.

First of all, I disagree with 'This also does little to the troll experience as it's still like any other double base.' Players using this evolve way faster as normal. Their wall is harder to pass, and their towers can be bigger easily. Their gold advantage will make the game harder for the troll, while a normal 2-elves base has the same defences (wall & towers) than other individual players. Wall sharers base is just unbalanced.
I don't get why this would be allowed while the house glitch is bannable because it makes "gain more income over other players." With this strategy we boost our income and we reduce our spendings.
Finally, even if it requires some experience to do it well, any players trying this strat will evolve faster than others. And anyway after one try they'll have the experience to do it better than the first time and they'll have an even better advantage.
It's like the house glitch, when we don't have experience, we don't do it as efficiently as experienced players. So the fact it can be allowed because it's more or less difficult to do is not relevant, in my opinion.

[Merex]

It's funny because the only thing we allow to a third player in a base is to cast his spells... While just building a house and the buildings necessary to upgrade it doesn't help the 2 other players, it just makes the 3rd player experience better. But I agree, it doesn't happen often and it isn't really important.

Think of this in a middle/medium map scenario.. If you're based somewhere relatively small which is common in those maps and you're already housing 2 people.. wouldn't a 3rd just hurt that further? Yes, we do allow an elf to jump in there and cast spells but they do such at the cost of having a base somewhere on the map that trolls could gain access to. If it becomes a bigger problem and/or a lesser one, it can be revisited but in my opinion this isn't a big deal right now.

Indeed, this glitch isn't known, but is that really a reason to not make it bannable ?
In my game, I built a wall behind to be able to build a normal base later, but it isn't necessary.
He tried 3 times to destroy it at 3 stages of the game, so with a low, medium and good stuff, and he didn't do it. If I based behind this house, I would've root or shield at soon as he uses reveal and he would've barely been able to attack it. And of course I could've repair it to kepp it full life.
I don't get why such an abuse, even if it isn't used, is allowed. I can do other games

Again though I just don't see, besides that base, where this can be abused. It needs to be a specific map in a specific situation to be able to properly preform this glitch. But I do see your point, if done correctly in very specific circumstances, you can prevent a troll from gaining access to your base due to the reveal cooldown and immediate spells at the elves disposal.

First of all, I disagree with 'This also does little to the troll experience as it's still like any other double base.' Players using this evolve way faster as normal. Their wall is harder to pass, and their towers can be bigger easily. Their gold advantage will make the game harder for the troll, while a normal 2-elves base has the same defences (wall & towers) than other individual players. Wall sharers base is just unbalanced.
I don't get why this would be allowed while the house glitch is bannable because it makes "gain more income over other players." With this strategy we boost our income and we reduce our spendings.
Finally, even if it requires some experience to do it well, any players trying this strat will evolve faster than others. And anyway after one try they'll have the experience to do it better than the first time and they'll have an even better advantage.
It's like the house glitch, when we don't have experience, we don't do it as efficiently as experienced players. So the fact it can be allowed because it's more or less difficult to do is not relevant, in my opinion.

Fair enough, I just don't want to see a proper strategy being cracked down upon but you are right. With the specific instance of wall sharing, income is boosted a house or 2 in advanced over others. I'll +1 this.

Since this was more-or-less made for a rule suggestion, I'd like to make my own proposal for such so the members of the department/oversight can have a proper look at what exactly is being proposed here.

Ban-able offenses:

• Do not stay nor build in another Elf's base without their consent.
• Elves may not build/use units (in) a base with more than two builders. If your base is destroyed or a base with more than two builders needs help,
• you may go there to aid with spells (nothing else) but you must not build or do anything else.
• When killed and chosen to help the elves, you may not hide in the middle between the Troll's huts in the Medium-Sized winter map.
• Do not trap the troll.
• Do not blink as either Angel or Elf into places on the map that the troll is unable to reach you from.
• Do not suicide as Elf unless the troll has broken your base.

Ban-able offenses:

• Do not use the house to gain more income over other players.
• Do not use structures to block your entrance that neither yourself/the troll can click on.
• Do not use the command "-gu" to exceed the food cap in any way.
• Do not place structures on ramps which force the troll to use reveal.
• Do not use the command "-gu" to exchange walls with other elves.

Miscellaneous Rules:

• When the map is bugged, players may suicide to proceed to the next map.

[xikens]

You forgot to merge the rules about reachable places ?
It would give :

Ban-able offenses:

Do not stay nor build in another Elf's base without their consent.
Elves may not build/use units (in) a base with more than two builders. If your base is destroyed or a base with more than two builders needs help,
you may go there to aid with spells (nothing else) but you must not build or do anything else.
Do not trap the troll.
Do not go, as either Angel or Elf, into places on the map that the troll is unable to reach you from.
Do not suicide as Elf unless the troll has broken your base.


Ban-able offenses:

Do not use the house to gain more income over other players.
Do not use structures to block your entrance that neither yourself/the troll can click on.
Do not use the command "-gu" to exceed the food cap in any way.
Do not place structures on ramps which force the troll to use reveal.
Do not use the command "-gu" to exchange walls with other elves.


Miscellaneous Rules:

When the map is bugged, players may suicide to proceed to the next map.

[matdas]

can i still build 10 thousand true sight towers stacked in front of my wall?

[xikens]

I didn't think about this, it is almost never done. In fact, I'm not sure I already saw someone else than me stacking true sight towers, and it's been a while I didn't do that.
I never seen stacked true sight towers blocking a troll because he could hold position to break everything. But it looks like workers shop glitch, so indeed it may be a good idea to rule this too.

[Nyckzin]

Some rules suggestions are kinda "let`s make this game friendly for everyone"

Do not trap the troll.
In the early game is kinda insta win, but this should not be bannable, imo once per turn if fine

Do not go, as either Angel or Elf, into places on the map that the troll is unable to reach you from.
Agreed

Do not place structures on ramps which force the troll to use reveal.
It is a War III "mechanic", Troll is suppoused to use Reveal anyway...

Do not use the command "-gu" to exchange walls with other elves.
Base share is an high level strategy, should not be banned, there is some other things to care about, if we punish Elves for trapping troll and for base share we kinda banned all "pro" techs from Elves

[xikens]

@Nyckzin you should give more arguments, explain further your point of vue. We already thinked about what you said and we argued for and against it.
And you should watch the game about building in ramp in such way troll don't have vision on the building to understand how it's powerful. Buildings are never used like that in W3 by the way

[Nyckzin]

@xikens

Do not place structures on ramps which force the troll to use reveal.
i watched the replay, i was thinking on a different "glitch", i agree, this should be banned

Do not use the command "-gu" to exchange walls with other elves.
About that, i don`t have any statistics, but i believe troll by itself have more win% then Elves, even with wall share any troll with the right item order and feeding (almost every game someone is there for it) is capable of winning, Elves don`t create any monstrous advantage, you get some minutes of advantage for the main player, the support player need to wait until 512 house to have self-sufficiency

"-gu" can be abuse
Wall share (main subject)
Hall share (not OP)
Food cap (already banned)

[xikens]

First of all, there is not support and main player. Both have the same house level, at maybe 20/30 second difference. And after a house upgrade the "main" player, the one having ressources and upping house first can change between the players.

In my opinion, allowing a strategy that gives an (imo, huge) advantage to elves because the troll wins more T&E games is a bad idea. If we allow things because the game results are in favor of the troll, we could allow anything that advantages elves, including everything banned today.

[Avenaei]

Ban-able offenses:

Do not stay nor build in another Elf's base without their consent.
Elves may not build/use units (in) a base with more than two builders. If your base is destroyed or a base with more than two builders needs help,
you may go there to aid with spells (nothing else) but you must not build or do anything else.
Do not trap the troll.
Do not go, as either Angel or Elf, into places on the map that the troll is unable to reach you from.
Do not suicide as Elf unless the troll has broken your base.


Ban-able offenses:

Do not use the house to gain more income over other players.
Do not use structures to block your entrance that neither yourself/the troll can click on.
Do not use the command "-gu" to exceed the food cap in any way.
Do not place structures on ramps which force the troll to use reveal.
Do not use the command "-gu" to exchange walls with other elves.


Miscellaneous Rules:

When the map is bugged, players may suicide to proceed to the next map.

I can agree with all of these rule changes.

Do not trap the troll.

This is instant death for the troll early-mid game, towers will slowly kill him while he can't kill the walls fast enough to escape. If he attempts to teleport out the channel will just be silenced.

Do not go, as either Angel or Elf, into places on the map that the troll is unable to reach you from.

Should be a rule already.

Do not place structures on ramps which force the troll to use reveal.

I have tested placing structures on ramps. The bug/glitch works on all maps. While this is only a minor annoyance late game when the troll can one shot the structure, if the troll can't kill the structure in 1 reveal time minus entangle time, the elf can permanently prevent the troll from getting up the ramp.

Further evidence demonstrates this is a bug and should be banned. This bug doesn't work on all ramps. This bug only works on ramps that face southward or westward. Cardinal directions are from high ground to low ground. Northward and eastward facing ramps will allow the troll to gain vision of the structure and attack it. If every elf uses this bug, the troll will be unable to win as he will be stuck on hut income. Furthermore, if the house is used, the troll has to gain more and more dmg to break though this bug as the house will continue to gain hp as it upgrades.

Do not use the command "-gu" to exchange walls with other elves.

Allows multiple elves to funnel money towards one wall to upgrade houses faster. Shouldn't be allowed as this gives the elves a huge advantage.

[lordmillt4]

I disagree with making -GU a bannable thing, its a valid strat for elves which the troll still can beat if hes good enough (It's not very hard to beat it honestly) and i Think it would be a dumb thing to ban if u ask me.