PoopingtonBear BAN appeal

[Poopingtonbear]

Warcraft III username: PoopingtonBear
Realm: US West
Gamename: [ENT] DotA apem us/ca #81
Bot username: N/A
Situation:

For reference here is the ban:

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=13112

Why you should be unbanned:

I am surprised I am banned at all. For reference, please watch the replay. In a nutshell, about halfway through the game I AFK to attend to some family matters.

During this time, mid gets pushed and this snowballs into a loss.

Now, I can admit; this is my fault. If my ban were because of bad form, causing a loss, abrupt AFK, or any number of other things on that axis... I would be okay with it.

However, the basis of the ban is the I intentionally circumvented the AFK kick.

This is not true.

Beyond the whole, I 'couldn't do it' thing... it really makes no sense for me to AFK troll a game which was clearly winnable and in which I contributed quite a bit already.

(I might have shared a courier with someone, but I don't think they would just move me slightly and idle.)

At best, I feel that moderator is jumping to conclusions. At worst, it is a gross abrogation of his responsibilities and misuse of his moderating privileges.

It appears that some of the players on the other team were banned as well. Please note though: It would appear that he only banned the ones that were actively disagreeing with him.

I kindly ask for a second opinion in this matter.

Thank you for your time.

Poopington Bear

[Palsgraf]

First, let's clarify something. The basis of the ban is two-prong: 1) you going AFK in the woods without explanation; and 2) you resetting the -afk clock.

Now there is no doubt that you went AFK in the woods at a critical time in the game. The people who were banned were not people who "disagreed with me," but rather people who refused to votekick you out.

Furthermore, the -afk clock reset and I saw you were in a different position at one point than you were when you first went AFK. Now, it's possible that someone else moved you slightly on the team, but why wouldn't they just move you into the base where you would be safe?

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that you really did not try to dodge -kickafk. That still does not make your behavior acceptable by any standards. You may have something you have to deal with in real life--it happens to everyone at some point--but it really is not that hard to right click on the fountain or the minimap to get yourself to safety before you get up and walk away from the computer.

I'm obviously going to let another mod handle this appeal, since I am the one who banned you. However, I would strongly recommend that your ban not be lifted. That fact that you are disingenuous about the reason for your ban -- implying that it is solely based on you -afk dodging -- shows that you do not think you did anything wrong. Therefore, I would not even recommend a ban reduction.

@edgeofchaos @agreements

[EdgeOfChaos]

Why didn't you leave the game instead of afking? Would have probably been a few hours and (if your stay rate was high) easily appealable and removable. If something comes up in real life and you have to go, leave, don't AFK.

Also, we can check via DRM if you moved your hero or if someone else did. I'll check that in a while, maybe. If you lied about that, it'll be an instant deny.

[Poopingtonbear]

Now there is no doubt that you went AFK in the woods at a critical time in the game. The people who were banned were not people who "disagreed with me," but rather people who refused to votekick you out.

These are the same people, yes?

Furthermore, the -afk clock reset and I saw you were in a different position at one point than you were when you first went AFK. Now, it's possible that someone else moved you slightly on the team, but why wouldn't they just move you into the base where you would be safe?

Given that one had the intention of moving me, you posit that it is more reasonable for someone to move me to a fountain as opposed to moving me slightly at the original place, correct?

So what you're saying is you agree with me, right?

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that you really did not try to dodge -kickafk. That still does not make your behavior acceptable by any standards. You may have something you have to deal with in real life--it happens to everyone at some point--but it really is not that hard to right click on the fountain or the minimap to get yourself to safety before you get up and walk away from the computer.

You're absolutely right on this part. Per my original post, if you banned me for bad etiquette I can accept that. I probably should have moved to fountain.

However, that is not your justification for banning me. You are banning me for something I did not do. This is where I am taking issue.

I would also like to add that I did not die when I was AFK.

Why didn't you leave the game instead of afking? Would have probably been a few hours and (if your stay rate was high) easily appealable and removable. If something comes up in real life and you have to go, leave, don't AFK.

Also, we can check via DRM if you moved your hero or if someone else did. I'll check that in a while, maybe. If you lied about that, it'll be an instant deny.

Understandable; I did not expect to AFK as long as I did, and it was a good game with good players on both sides. I played competently and I was aware that there was no chance for the team if I left - hence I came back as soon as possible.

I look forward to the results of the investigation.

[Palsgraf]

You're absolutely right on this part. Per my original post, if you banned me for bad etiquette I can accept that. I probably should have moved to fountain.

However, that is not your justification for banning me. You are banning me for something I did not do. This is where I am taking issue.

I would also like to add that I did not die when I was AFK.

Read the ban request. The first reason you were banned is listed as "AFKing in woods," so I don't know what you mean when you say that is not the justification for your ban.

As to this:

Furthermore, the -afk clock reset and I saw you were in a different position at one point than you were when you first went AFK. Now, it's possible that someone else moved you slightly on the team, but why wouldn't they just move you into the base where you would be safe?

Given that one had the intention of moving me, you posit that it is more reasonable for someone to move me to a fountain as opposed to moving me slightly at the original place, correct?

you are misunderstanding what I said. I was merely acknowledging the possibility that someone on our team who you may have shared control with moved you. I am not saying that actually happened - nor that anyone had the intention to move you.

As to the rest, res ipsa loquitor. You went AFK in woods without explanation at critical time in game. At the very least you could have retreated to safety. At best, you could have left. You did neither. Case closed.

[EdgeOfChaos]

I went through DRM, here's what I found.

You repeatedly selected your hero in the time you were supposedly "afk"
24:07 <PoopingtonBear> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Morphling], 0x0000A59100006A77
24:24 <PoopingtonBear> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Morphling], 0x0000A59100006A77
24:41 <PoopingtonBear> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Morphling], 0x0000A59100006A77
24:42 <PoopingtonBear> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Morphling], 0x0000A59100006A77
24:42 <PoopingtonBear> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Morphling], 0x0000A59100006A77
24:44 <PoopingtonBear> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Morphling], 0x0000A59100006A77
24:55 <PoopingtonBear> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Tomb of Relics], 0x00006F3A00006E32
25:43 <PoopingtonBear> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Morphling], 0x0000A59100006A77
26:03 <PoopingtonBear> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Morphling], 0x0000A59100006A77
26:15 <PoopingtonBear> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Morphling], 0x0000A59100006A77
He comes back here:
26:37 <PoopingtonBear> 0x12: Target order: attack (X: 1876.95, Y: -2619.08, flags: 0x0000)
26:38 <PoopingtonBear> 0x12: Target order: attack (X: 2910.13, Y: 1116.67, flags: 0x0000)
26:42 <PoopingtonBear> 0x12: Target order: carrionswarm (X: 3070.98, Y: 2295.72, flags: 0x0044)

You did not avoid the afk kick. However all these subgroup selections seem interesting; somehow while "afk", you were still able to click your hero like 50 times and the Tomb of Relics once.

BTW: It was Zeus's ult that caused him to move. But he wasn't AFK for 5 minutes anyways, so AFK kick would not have been possible.

@Poopingtonbear what do you say about these action logs?

[Poopingtonbear]

Read the ban request. The first reason you were banned is listed as "AFKing in woods," so I don't know what you mean when you say that is not the justification for your ban.

Is this in fact a bannable offense? Please enlighten me. I find this hard to believe, especially since my intent is clearly not to troll. If it is, then I am satisfied.

However, if you read the chat log in the game, you clearly state that you are banning me for AFK dodging.

you are misunderstanding what I said. I was merely acknowledging the possibility that someone on our team who you may have shared control with moved you. I am not saying that actually happened - nor that anyone had the intention to move you.

You acknowledge the possibility with loaded words... and that's it. Isn't your job to be unbiased and thorough?

[/quote]
As to the rest, res ipsa loquitor. You went AFK in woods without explanation at critical time in game. At the very least you could have retreated to safety. At best, you could have left. You did neither. Case closed.[/quote]

I thought you asked for someone else to moderate? I would really prefer if someone else would take a look. Clearly you have made up your mind one way or another, and there is not much value in having you arbitrate the situation once more.

It is also somewhat bothersome that your entire narrative is based on your assessment being justified, but I suppose this is why I am asking for someone else to intervene here.

[Palsgraf]

@poopingtonbear Did you not read edgeofchaos' analysis above? What do you have to say for those clicks?

[Poopingtonbear]

Two fold:

I pose this question: Why would I click 50 times on m hero - and then a shop - not do anything, then come back and finish the game.

I had played very well, up to that point and after. So all of a sudden, after I big team win, I decided to idle and click randomly?

Does that make a lot of sense?

Second... well, I was going ask about the Carrion Swarm but it's irrelevant as it is after the AFK.

A possibility occurred to me: Is it possible that the person who shared control with me clicked? During the game there was the dotted circle around my hero a few times indicating that someone had clicked on me.

[EdgeOfChaos]

Carrion Swarm is the base ability ID of Wave-Form.

And no, that never occurred to me. If someone did that, DRM would say it was that person and not you.

As for the first part: I dunno. You tell me.

A possibility occurred to me: Is it possible that the person who shared control with me clicked? During the game there was the dotted circle around my hero a few times indicating that someone had clicked on me.

In DRM, this would display that the player you shared with has just clicked you. Not that you clicked yourself. I have found out people who destroy people's items using control this way. DRM is smart, it differentiates from shared control and the player itself.

had played very well, up to that point and after. So all of a sudden, after I big team win, I decided to idle and click randomly?

May not make sense to you.. people do this though

[Poopingtonbear]

Maybe I am reading this incorrectly.

I downloaded the parser and from 24:06-24:08 I have:

24:06 Player: DavidChang 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0000, ItemID: 0x000D0003, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: 3602.178223, Y: -3963.469727, ID: 0xFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF
24:07 Player: FireBirdyourAss 0x18: Select hotkey. group: 0x00, unknown: 0x03
24:07 Player: DavidChang 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0000, ItemID: 0x000D0003, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: 3261.674072, Y: -4118.393066, ID: 0xFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF
24:07 Player: burinn 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0000, ItemID: 0x000D0003, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: -415.569641, Y: -833.722534, ID: 0xFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF
24:07 Player: FireBirdyourAss 0x18: Select hotkey. group: 0x00, unknown: 0x03
24:07 Player: DavidChang 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0000, ItemID: 0x000D0003, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: 3238.909424, Y: -4109.479004, ID: 0xFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF
24:07 Player: burinn 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0000, ItemID: 0x000D0003, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: -374.921570, Y: -833.722656, ID: 0xFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF
24:07 Player: wiscacho 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0040, ItemID: 0x000D0278, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: -948.653992, Y: -908.518433, ID: 0x000073C5 0000F4BA
24:07 Player: DavidChang 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0000, ItemID: 0x000D0003, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: 3382.564697, Y: -3775.318359, ID: 0xFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF
24:07 Player: DavidChang 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0000, ItemID: 0x000D0003, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: 3231.288574, Y: -3938.317871, ID: 0xFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF
24:07 Player: FireBirdyourAss 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0000, ItemID: 0x000D0003, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: -5836.386719, Y: -6239.269043, ID: 0xFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF
24:07 Player: jumpinjackflash 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0000, ItemID: 0x000D0003, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: -1394.798340, Y: -186.497070, ID: 0xFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF
24:07 Player: DavidChang 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0000, ItemID: 0x000D0003, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: 3188.391602, Y: -3938.317871, ID: 0xFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF
24:08 Player: FireBirdyourAss 0x12: Ability. flags: 0x0000, ItemID: 0x000D0003, unknownA: 0xFFFFFFFF, unknownB: 0xFFFFFFFF, X: -5905.126465, Y: -6217.560547, ID: 0xFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF

Am I missing something?

[EdgeOfChaos]

What is that supposed to prove?

[Poopingtonbear]

Why does everyone assume that I am lying? First that I am trolling, now that I am deleting logs... is it guilty until proven innocent here?

I am not deleting logs. Of course, I really can't prove that I'm not deleting logs either. If you guys would show me how to pull the log, I can get the same conclusion as you guys and this would be resolved yes.

This is a bit personal for me because I feel strongly that said moderator is abusing his privileges.

Agreements: I don't know what constitutes a waste of your time, so I apologize if this is the case.

I genuinely was AFK to be with my family, and I was nowhere near a computer until I came back to resume the game. So here are your answers.

1) I was AFK for the course of minutes in the neutral on Scourge side.

2) I have not used any sort of third party programs - including hacks of any kind or the aforementioned - AFK script - when it comes to dota. Although I will probably start using ENT Connect after this.

[Palsgraf]

This is a bit personal for me because I feel strongly that said moderator is abusing his privileges.

Everyone feels the moderator who bans them is abusing his privileges.

Why does everyone assume that I am lying? First that I am trolling, now that I am deleting logs... is it guilty until proven innocent here?

It is not guilty until proven innocent. There is already a substantial amount of evidence establishing your guilt. Now the burden has shifted to you to discount the substantial amount of evidence against you.

We assume you are lying because there is objective evidence demonstrating that you selected your hero and other areas of the map during the time that you were supposedly AFK with your family. As agreements stated, this leaves us to conclude either 1) you are, indeed, lying about going AFK, or 2) using some sort of illegal third-party program to select your hero over and over again during the time you were allegedly AFK. There is simply no other rational conclusion given the evidence before us.

Agreements: I don't know what constitutes a waste of your time, so I apologize if this is the case.

It is a waste of a moderator's or administrator's time to deal with frivolous ban appeals. It is not a waste of our time when there is a genuine issue of fact to examine. In this case, there is no genuine issue of fact to examine. The evidence is overwhelmingly against you and you have put forward no case to explain that evidence, yet you continue to assert your innocence. For us, that is a waste of time.

@poopingtonbear

[BurritoCarcass]

Well, you asked for other moderator input, so here it is:

First I have a few questions that will lead to my supporting this or not.

1) Why would you afk in the woods?
2) There was a zeus ult during this afk period, personally, if I see someone "afk" after a zeus ult, I go kill them, enemy team did not, how does that work?
3) According to those click records, you were not actually afk for the entire period of 299 seconds, was there someone on the other team you were allowing to win?
4) The reason I feel as if this question has any importance is because of the time you elected to afk, a very pivotal point in the game. Is this simply a coincidence or was there a motive to your actions?

As far as my opinion is concerned, you have out right earned this ban, and based on this "click history," I would ban you longer. I have a great deal of suspicion aimed in your direction for not only afk dodging/game ruining, but also for throwing the game for possible friends on Sentinel. I will do my best to prove either scenario. For future reference, click your hero to the fountain if you want to pretend afk. Also, mention it to your team. I will wait for your response.