Ragingrhino/Bitchdoctor - maphacker?

[RichardCoffee]

http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/vie ... 249186.w3g


I have to say that ragingrhino aka bitchdoctor aka whatever guy is massively suspicious.

Starts at about 16:00 in-game time. He starts spazzing out his hero, and even pinging near himself, going in a circle in the woods.

Realizing it was suspicious, he claimed it was wards so it was clear someone was there. The only problem is that I checked replay, and the route I ran (LC) did not appear to have a shred of vision of the hero in wards. It would not explain a single thing of his movements. The most he saw was the rune taken, but that would assume him watching the rune and anticipating a circuitous route that avoids wards. He ran a complete circle in the trees, and instantly turned back when he was blocked as if he was anticipating it. This guy is also pretty much ungankable in games.

Ordinarily, i would give him the benefit of the doubt, but this guy's games are absolutely filled with moments like this. Another moment was him "coincidentally" walking to a random woods path to "stumble" on KillStyles in another game to stun him at low hp.

Yet another moment in the same game proving maphack was him terroring directly on to us at rosh at 24:50. He had absolutely 0 vision due to smoke, and he terrored directly onto rosh, even when they had wards, suggesting there would be 0 players at rosh. This unexplainable move turned the game around.

I was always suspicious of this guy, but after seeing this I have to say I strongly suspect this guy is nothing but a dirty maphacker. I realize these are just 2 timestamps, but his games are filled with moments like this. I didn't bother submitting a ban req since they are not taken seriously, but still figured I'd ask if anyone else thought this guy was playing with mh.

[dumpster_]

(27:30 / Allied) BitchDoctor: rune picked

We saw that the rune was taken.
Knowing that nobody has lothar, the only other explanation is that you smoked. Where else but to rosh?

[RichardCoffee]

(27:30 / Allied) BitchDoctor: rune picked

We saw that the rune was taken.
Knowing that nobody has lothar, the only other explanation is that you smoked. Where else but to rosh?

I re-checked this moment. Sorry, it's all way too coincidental.

First of all, this assumes jumping to that conclusion within about 3 seconds of rune being missing. How would you know someone didn't complete a surprise lothars? Why would you start mass pinging a missing gold rune as a solo venge?

Please note how he began running to rune to coincide exactly with when we smoked and went to rosh, and before that he was traveling to base. Why run to 2nd tower at bot, and then head back to rune? If a gold rune is so interesting, why wait till exactly the time we start doing invisible movements to rosh? Feel free to disagree, but it's all way too coincidental lol.

[RichardCoffee]

It's hilarious how in your own example you yourself didn't realize it was smoke until AFTER the fight and were confused.

(27:39 / Allied) hahanewshoes: who has invis
(27:49) TRADER5.0 killed Superballer
(27:51) bb_c killed WheatHarvester
(27:56) hahanewshoes killed bb_c
(27:59) TRADER5.0 killed BitchDoctor
(28:00 / Allied) hahanewshoes: oh they smoked

You expect me to believe this braindead german player is able to do an analysis (which isn't even logically sound btw) of a missing gold rune to deduce we're smoked at rosh in full wards? Sure thing man. That invisible hero 16:45 chase and ping was hilarious too.

[dumpster_]

I was on autopilot this game.
People say they weren't trying when they die or lose but I really meant it.
Normally I'd be 100% aware of who has what items.
This time I wasn't, and my first thought was "oh shit, which one of them has lothar".
Had I been paying attention and known that none of you do, you bet your ass my immediate thought would be "oh they smoked".
Certainly don't need a whole three seconds to realize that.
I'll take a closer look at the replay later.

[RichardCoffee]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias

Sorry, if this were someone else other than bitchdoctor/bonuscreep I'd chalk up this game to just 2 unusual coincidences. As it is, I've played too many games with/against this guy and he is consistently doing bullshit moves like this while never being caught in ganks. I am a ganking player, not a macro farmer, and "bitchdoctor" is pretty much ungankable in my games, including when you are fully invisible. For example, he often begins spazzing out and running back and forth when a hero is near him.
I do understand if others disbelieve that he MHs though, since he otherwise sucks. It's whatever, I guess.

[dumpster_]

Generally speaking I agree that the way he moves is suspicious, but I have to nitpick a few points you made in isolation, without taking away from the overall argument.

"the route I ran (LC) did not appear to have a shred of vision of the hero in wards"
That's a weird way to phrase it.
It either did or it didn't. There shouldn't be any uncertainty about it.
In this case yea it did, at 19:45 you can be seen for a full second or more near the ancients. That's definitely enough to notice.
Some of his weird movements (weaving through trees near hill instead of taking a direct path; briefly running to tower only to go back to lane a second later) occur before this, so they are still not explained.

"and instantly turned back when he was blocked as if he was anticipating it"
That's normal pathing mechanics and in fact an important part of juking, but very few people know it or use it.

The way he runs to lane before you smoke and then turns immediately back to rosh is weird.
But terroring into rosh is not weird at all.
Rune being taken means someone was invis or someone smoked.
You're right that I did miss the possibility of a newly built lothar that we don't know about, but that doesn't really change anything.
She can still go and check rosh, it doesn't cost anything, and it's safe to do even if there is an invis hero running around 'cause she's got me nearby.

[RichardCoffee]

Point taken about the moment with the invisible rune. I had not seen my hero briefly appeared on the minimap in ancients at all, so you are indeed correct.

However, it's still odd to me how he began running in circles around trees afterwards. Any normal player would just run if they noticed that. Furthermore, the Rosh moment is still completely suspicious to me. If you analyze the actual moment, you will see it depended entirely on fortuitous timing. If he did not do the following: 1)turn back when he did, 2) alert you to the gold rune, and 3) also terror directly on rosh, we would have succeeded.

Believe it or not, I actually took the gold rune on purpose assuming it was being watched. I figured it was safer to take it than for someone to have an "excuse" to come close to rosh, with a gold rune being the putative excuse. It's funny how he had no interest at all in the gold rune when pudge was watching out of vision from a hill, and only began rushing to the area after we're at rosh. At its best, this is a very lucky moment. I don't buy for a moment that a missing gold rune = someone in smoke is roshing. If this were in any way accurate, you would see enemy teams rushing to rosh area (already in full wards) after bot runes were missing. This simply doesn't happen in actual games - maybe in make-believe ones. The most that could be claimed is this is just a fortunate series of events that allowed a gank at rosh. Most people don't actually anticipate smokes when they have full vision of rosh with wards.
Also, keep in mind that pudge in our game often uses smokes to just walk around the map or gank, including in the same game prior to this moment. Smoke actually covers up mini-dot vision even if someone has mh, so it is a useful item sometimes.
I'll probably check some other replays at some point.

[freshP]

I didn't see the post, so sorry for joining the discussion late.
I think you should change your point of view and the way, you approach this topic. First of all: I don't like how you 'lead' and put stress on weaker players in chat. Nonetheless I respect you as a player and feel kinda honored by your accusation of me maphacking.
I might not be the best player and my style of playing this game doesn't really go well with yours. But - as you mentioned - ganking me isn't super easy. I am pretty aware of enemy picks and always have an eye on the minimap. I check the movement of enemy team and I get suspicious and cautious, if they all disappear.
In addition, we've played hundreds (if not thousands) of games with or against each other. And - different to my Dota-skills - I'm pretty good at certain card games, where reading and analysing the board and your opponent is crucial. This definitely benefits my survival rate at dota, when facing players, that love to gank. Also I kinda try to anticipate your next move. And while this seems impossible for certain players I find it not too hard - especially vs. LC or Slark. Because most of the time they'll target the low hanging fruit and are pretty easy to read.
And after all: I like fairplay. And I'm a honorable loser. If someone is better than me/my team, I take the loss and don't cry about it. I take it as a lesson. I'll try to understand, why we lost and avoid certain situations the next time. But you won't find me in the chat bitching about the behaviour of certain players.
Waste all the time you want analysing my movements. Because, after all, this means you will spend less time ingame. But you won't find me using any kind of illegal software

[RichardCoffee]

I think you should change your point of view and the way, you approach this topic. First of all: I don't like how you 'lead' and put stress on weaker players in chat. Nonetheless I respect you as a player and feel kinda honored by your accusation of me maphacking.

Isn't this super weird comment to be your first thought, lol? I post a thread thinking you have MH, and you say you don't like how I flame players...has nothing to do with anything. (Also, I am not that great - you flatter me. I consider myself just a normal/above average player). I admit I rage, but that's usually only directed to people I think genuinely screwed the game due to incompetence. Some people just have a 'competitive spirit' built into them at anything slightly competitive, and I'm one of them. I envy people who are just calm as we got folks like HinduSmash are playing like they're on meth, or Kuzko gracing us to play while in the middle of watching Netflix and getting his hair cut at the barbershop.

Ever since ouchies' post here, I will admit I'm not 100% sure you mh anymore since you did see my mini-dot in the replay with the first LC movement, which I didn't notice before. The rosh movement was still sus, and so were a bunch of other moves you did in my games that I didn't mention here...

With all that said, I guess I'll give you the benefit of a doubt that I'm incorrect. After all, I don't have any smoking gun evidence. If you actually don't use any MH, feel free to take it as a compliment that you probably have a top tier level of awareness on this server in my estimation.

[freshP]

I have the same competitive spirit. But, as you mentioned, certain players seem to lack the 'winning gene' and are totally unaware of things happening on the map.
They will keep falling for the same trap or feed at the same (warded) spot - even when the expected outcome is kinda obvious. So I have to be double aware.
If you'd further analyze my play (which I not recommend, as it's probably very boring), you will see me place torrents on rune spots before I go there, repeatedly send Venges wave of terror to certain spots or even use Spectres ulti. Just for vision. And sometime i succeed
I think picking the right place and time for a battle plays a huge role in winning a Dota match. So you'll often find me being very (maybe too) cautious and avoiding fights. But, imho, the hardest part is convincing stupid teammates to be patient.