QQ fix suggestion

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Lynx
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QQ fix suggestion

Postby Lynx » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:40 am

TL;DR in quoute below if ur a lazy reader
TL;DR wrote:Suggestion is about adding neutral creep camp(s) to Island defense. Neutral creeps drops experience, gold and lumber bundles when killed. It will add a reason not to afk etc etc etc and add fun brawls etcetc etc etc. read the text instead of tldr u lazy cow

Are you tired of QQing because you can't level your hunter?
Are you tired of QQing because there is no feed on map?
Are you tired of QQing because titan is so hard to play?

Fix to all these problems???
  • Neutral creep camp spawning a group of creeps every minute.
    • Drops Gold, Lumber, and Experience bundles that anyone can pick up.
    • Also drops random shitty items
    • Every 3rd spawn will drop a titan egg
      • titan should be able to kill titan eggs in 2-3 hits.

Why is this good?
  • It's an objective that will require teamwork and effort from builders.
  • It will give titan some guidance on where to go.
  • People will now have a reason not to afk in bases
  • titan eggs are now fun to have since in all versions of ID so far, when you've got a titan egg you've pretty much won already
  • imagine the epic fights and make-shift bases around neutral camp when titan and builders fight to kill the creeps
  • tauren can now get experience from not suiciding
'

Where should the neutral camp be?
i dont know, but there should be a lot of open area around the camp(s) so it's hard for builders to perma base around it. Perhaps tear down skybase and put it there.

How many neutral camps should there be?
I don't know. Initially I thought there should be only one, but that might be too easy for builders to hold it indefinitely so perhaps there should be 2-4 camps and each minute only one of the camps will have a spawn.

How difficult should the creeps be?
good question me! I don't know, perhaps around 3-5 creeps with a sum total of 4k-6k health. Some cool abilities. Average damage. Titan should be able to solo it, builders must co-operate. I think they should have an aura that reduces armor of nearby structures to prevent builders from mass-walling like jews.

Possible issues
  • One minute spawn might be too short and it will be a permanent brawl around the camp(s) so the titan won't have time to do other stuff like killing lumber bases and generally farming experience and gold.
    • Perhaps gold and exp won't change much since there will be stuff to farm at the camp(s), but titan not clearing lumber bases might lead to builders having too much lumber to base. But perhaps they will use a lot of lumber to fight at the camp(s). It's hard to say if neutral camps will have a major impact on resources
  • It might be more efficient to farm gold at mound rather than trying to compete for gold at the camps so people aren't that interested in contesting them.
    • This could be a major con. It's meant that the neutral camps should be an epic short lasted fight for resources, but if no builder shows up it won't be that. Of course preventing titan from getting resources is a big deal enough itself to make up for leaving mound to contest the camp, but players might not realize that. There are multiple solutions I've come up with under 2 minutes of thinking. 1) Increase wait time between each gold coin at mound. 2) 15 seconds before creep spawn you can't gold at mound. 3) Add spell to mound that prevents builders from golding during 15 seconds.
      • I do not think having very large resource bonuses dropping from the creeps is the way to go, that'll will give too much resources to the players.

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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby pep » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:58 pm

I like it, but I think neco is implementing something like quests for the builders so they have something to do while titan is running around the map clearing shit b4 sieging.
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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby ShadowZz » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:01 pm

@Lynx This may come as a surprise to you but I've already suggested this multiple times and spent hours talking about the issues with it. The bottom line is I completely agree with you on this but it simply won't work for Wc3 ID. It's too big a change which would take way too much time to balance out and would drastically change the direction of the game. Something that Wc3 ID simply can't handle right now due to playerbase etc.

As for the idea as a whole I plan on trying to get it to work with Standalone and seeing where it takes us. The only real difference between my version and yours above is the resource drops to builders was more intended as EXP to titan hunters alongside a full overhaul of their levelling system and abilities to make them more useful and make builders active even when sitting in bases.
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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby Lynx » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:17 pm

cool, finally we agree.

Don't think the change would impact playerbase more than 3.0.9d -> 4.0.0 did. If anything it'd be a positive impact to be honest, 4.0.0 itself has done some weird changes that would be hurtful to the playerbase e.g. op demonoligist.

As for balancing, start small and increase it gradually.

As for quests, might work, might be the same, would be disappointed if it is solo quests, would be fun if everyone would work together.

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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby ShadowZz » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:37 pm

I actually agree with you for the most part but I'm sure you can understand the amount of time that would need to go into getting this to work and the amount of changes to other things in the game. Like-wise balancing around it so that it does not become a case of titan having to spend all his time either denying builders getting creeps or prepping for the next spawn and ignoring feed etc. It's just too much work for Wc3 tbh :/
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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby Burn » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:45 pm

It should be something like a minor amount of EXP that is negligible for titan minions (eve lvl 2 ones), but reduce the EXP needed from titan hunters so that you only need around 2-3 EXP tomes to level and scale upwards. Of course, makrura hunter would be an indirect relative nerf due to its slowness, so maybe mak hunter needs to have insane level scaling which makes him super tough. I think at the moment makrura hunter is weak because of his low HP. If his HP was increased and armour decreased, it'd make him nuke resistance and viable as a hunter-wall.

Also, pls give back faerie hunter. No idea why it was removed. It made Faerie a lot more fun with infinite double lightning balls, but fairly useless which isn't OP at all.

Don't like the gold/lumber drops because it will encourage titan stall (maybe drops shitloads of lumber after 40mins), however skill ceiling goes up because titan needs to watch for items on the ground with more items.

Eggs dropping every 10mins after 20mins GP should work.

It probably won't cost that much time to implement - just timers and drop spots? Similar to Demonologist Nether.

Some quest suggestions:

Spoiler!
If every surviving builder on the map holds the same item in any slot, it would be upgraded
(Also nerfs multiple minions and buffs leavers, would need the leaver gold to titan back)

- Shield of Will -> Shield of Might (very viable strat. if there's only like 2 builders left who has trouble re-walling at GP, leaving 45g for megas)
- Merch items -> Upgraded merch items (tracker/summoning/trolls/spearlocs)

Build a tower
- Gain 1000 wood
(buffs early basers, resulting in less early shitbases)

Deal the most damage to a minion in his last 10 seconds of his life but not receive the kill
- Gain 30G

Be the sole damage dealer of a minion without towers (total gain 75G)
- Gain 45G

Mystery quests:

Kidnap Jen
- Gain frog scale

Kill Neco
- Cursed by -1 attack

Kill Jen
- Cursed by -1 MS
-Burn
Last edited by Burn on Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby Lynx » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:01 pm

What will happen if neutral creeps kills a builder?

A) It's like dying normally, except titan doesnt get a minion, gold, or exp
-Would be cool with permanent neutral buildings if this was the case
B) Builders can't be attacked by neutral creeps and can't attack neutral creeps
C) Builders get a 5 minute undispellable eye of the ocean debuff and neutral creeps stop attacking you once you reach 1 hp.
D) You teleport to mound
E) You lose 35% gold and lumber

I don't know... anybody got a good solution? I can't come up with something I like, either A or E atm.

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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby Burn » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:05 pm

Really like the suggestion. But how would you combat titan stalling?

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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby Lynx » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:41 pm

burn wrote:But how would you combat titan stalling?

A) Creeps scale very very hard into the later parts of the game
B) Creeps stop spawning after a set time
C) In order for creeps to start spawning, before every spawn a small quest needs to be completed.
- Creeps doesn't spawn on a timer, only 30 seconds after a quest is completed
- After a quest is completed, the next quest will be available to read info on.
- All builders get the same quest and will co-operate to complete it.
- You get quest information and hand in quest at the same spot next to a NPC. Where is the NPC? idk, maybe at the builder item shop. If it was a previous version of top left area I'd say that place would be a good spot, maybe create something similar now.
- Quests could be; donate lumber, find X item that just spawned across the map, gather 5 builders at NPC location to help him with the "creep summoning ritual"
- When a quest is done, everyone will get a on-screen text saying a creep camp is spawning in 30 seconds, and a minimap ping to where it is
D) Builders can disable spawning with a vote

I'm torn between A and C. Anybody got another suggestion?

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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby ShadowZz » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:22 pm

For combat titan stalling:
C is better.

After all it is primarily intended in my opinion for builders to do things when the game gets "slow and boring" and for higher end players to gain skilled advantages though using titan hunters more effectively.

For dying:
Two problems here. When I originally thought this up it was about 8 months ago based off of the fact that the majority of titan hunters (melee, shit tier) were and are completely useless and of the ones that aren't their only use is denying wards (apart from rad) which to be honest is so demeaning for what they could potentially be used for.

Poses two problems. Would the creeps only be killable by hunters. The reason for this is that supports can contribute through fulfilling spawning requirements such as quests and the hunters can actually kill the creeps/mini bosses. Requires teamwork to be effective and passes the time quite well so in my opinion the best option would be making builders unable to attack creeps and visa versa.

As for implementing:
There's so much shit that would have to change that whilst it's fun, it just becomes so non-viable. Your talking about spending the next 6-12 months fully implementing it and slowly balancing everything else in ID around that. You may think that 6-12 months is way over the top but think about the general testing time. You would have to implement it as a baseline and wait for players to adjust to the version as well as gain thorough results on the problems with it. That would be at least 3-4 versions and 3-6 months alone. Then you would need to slowly adjust titan's, map positions for spawns, titan hunters abilities, level gain, exp, quests and other balance issues around the idea and that would be at least another 6-12 months and uncountable versions.

It's a lot more complicated to implement that it first seems and it just slowly becomes such a big project in the scheme of things and all it really accomplishes is making hunters useful and preventing boredom in games. Both I agree are extremely important but by the time it's use-able in game after a bunch of shit tier versions of it over 6-12 months I'm not sure what the player base would look like or if it would eventually work out.

The time it will take outweighs the benefits for Wc3 is basically what I'm saying but please keep this conversation going because although I know you both don't support IDS it's very useful information to discuss and help with potential issues.
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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby Lynx » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:33 pm

As for implementing: Let @Neco decide if it is feasible or not, tbh

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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby Lynx » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:06 am

I dislike restricting the player too much, the best solution imo is the creeps spawn sleeping. This way your builder can't be surprise attacked. If you decide to fight them and die, Neco's new neutral buildings idea comes in nicely.

But make the neutral buildings permanent, also let towers attack. Basically just leave the buildings on the map, but noone can control them. Workers and titan hunter too. Obviously you'd want to deny everything, which adds another thing support builders can do.

I don't think titan hunters being useless and not having much function is an issue. They still do decent damage and have a lot of health, especially if they can level. Maybe add the ARC upgrade skill to level 3 instead of having to spend 45 gold on a supbar punishable skill.

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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby Burn » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:24 am

Sounds good.

-Burn

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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby Stealer » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:21 pm

Lynx wrote: have a lot of health, especially if they can level.


What a joke. Maybe if they level to 20.

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Re: QQ fix suggestion

Postby TooNoobForU » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:09 am

o-o neutral camps huh, turtles or hero cant pick it up. only builder
mini also cant pick it up, only titan
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